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welcome to skeptic aware we explore

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controversial science and spirituality

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with leading researchers thinkers and

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their critics

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I'm your host Alex Harrison today we're

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joined by Matthew Alper who a few years

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ago wrote a book the god part of the

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brain a book that received a tremendous

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amount of praise was very well received

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and a lot of people liked it especially

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a lot of really smart people like the

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ones that I'm shown up here on the

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screen I was doing an radio the

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interview the other day here's how this

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interview came about there's a show

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midnight in the desert and I'm talking

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to the producer beforehand and she's

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telling me about this guy who came on

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this show and the host was so frustrated

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the guy's an atheist and he's a skeptic

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and he's so frustrated that they didn't

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even finish the interview and I was like

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man this is my kind of guy I need to

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talk to this guy well that's actually a

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nice way of saying that they hung up on

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me he said it's the first time I'm like

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what are you hanging up on somebody for

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so as you know from listening to this

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show folks have listened to it I love

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exchanging a lot of ideas I'm open to

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especially hashing out things with

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people who are coming thing coming up

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things from this kind of materialistic

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perspective which is the dominant view

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within science and this God part of the

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brain thing is something we've certainly

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talked about a ton on this show so I

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thought it'd be great you know to have

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you on and to kind of hash this out and

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to go over this so Matthew thanks so

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much for coming on and can you tell us a

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little bit about yourself and about more

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well I'm not that interesting so you

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know born raised in Brooklyn did some

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schooling in London had a bunch of jobs

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I was a fifth grade teacher I worked as

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a sculptor - claymation studio made

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monsters for a living

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then I went back to teaching to a high

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school history then I bought a book how

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to write a screenplay wrote a screenplay

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met a producer from Europe at a party

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ended up living in Munich while my movie

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got produced it was a dystopic science

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fiction and then while i was in germany

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i sort of a light bulb went off in my

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head and i came up with the concept the

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foundation for the god part of the brain

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and i decided that's gonna be my next

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thing i studied philosophy in college

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I'd been reading a lot of science and

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philosophy since I was young I was since

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I came to terms with my mortality I

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think I was driven to try to get to the

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bottom of you know is there a spiritual

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reality it seemed like most the world

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believe there was one you know people

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talked about us all being reunited in

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heaven and all of that and I know wasn't

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buying it turned out Santa wasn't real

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and a whole bunch of other stuff so I

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said I'm gonna look a little deeper into

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this I want to get to the bottom of this

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particular question and I thought that

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the answer would eventually come in some

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one of the sciences so I was reading

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from cosmology down to molecular biology

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thinking leave no stone unturned I was

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also experimenting with drugs and

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meditation thinking you know there were

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a lot of people writing about how

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different psychedelics were a portal to

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the other side that didn't really get me

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anywhere just sort of altered states of

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consciousness so so I kind of felt like

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if there was gonna be an answer it was

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gonna be in the sciences but then after

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I don't know 22 years of well I was 22

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at the time and I was like you know what

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I've read all the books and I'm getting

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nowhere and I just have to accept the

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fact like everyone else that it's just

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one of those unanswerable and I guess

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I'll know when I die or I won't know

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what I thought so when while in Germany

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I

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they out they offered me a job there and

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I was like alright I guess you know I

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was gonna work on other screenplays

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living in Munich it was a beautiful city

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and I thought to myself alright I guess

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I've got a job I've got a career I kind

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of lamented for a moment the fact that

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like you know I used to be

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philosophically driven I had this quest

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I wanted to know deeper things and you

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know I guess I'm just gonna be a guy

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with a job and I said you know what I

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haven't even thought about really

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anything philosophical in years and

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again when I was in high school and then

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college and after college I was you know

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reading all of the of you know as much

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as I could of the great thinkers in

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history the philosophers thinking maybe

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somewhere someone kind of opened the

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gateway to an idea in one of their

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thoughts let me just jump in with a

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quick question Matthew at this point

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where would you consider yourself like

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spiritually would you identify yourself

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at this point as an atheist or was that

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not even you'd you just were like

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somebody he just was going along with

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trying to figure this stuff out no I

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would say that I'm probably the most

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fundamental atheist you can come across

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but now you are I guess I'm trying to

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say back then would you identify yeah if

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someone asked me then I would have said

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I'm an atheist but I wasn't but I was a

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frustrated atheist frustrated in that I

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didn't believe but I didn't feel I had a

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grounding for my disbelief other than it

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just didn't you didn't add up yeah this

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is a bunch of crap Noah's Ark this stuff

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I'm definitely not that's even religion

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I you know I you know I felt just by

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learning all the world's mythologies I

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didn't have to debunk each one

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individually you know that Zeus was as

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likely to be as real as was Jesus or

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Moses or Mohammed or any of them so that

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was easy religion was easy but that

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doesn't just even if you know the

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religions got it wrong that doesn't mean

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there's necessarily no spiritual reality

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you know something that we haven't even

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come across yet so that was what I

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wanted to get to the bottom of because

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basically you know the question was I'm

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either one of two things I'm either a

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physical being

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which means ashes to ashes dust to dust

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or am a spiritual being which means that

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even though my body will die there's a

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chance that some aspect of myself my

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conscious experience will live on in

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which case I'm immortal

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so I don't have to be as nervous about

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it

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so butBut I considered myself you know

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an atheist but I you know just again

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like I said I was frustrated in that it

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felt it felt empty in that I didn't have

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so someone who revere science I wanted

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proof of my belief in some form other

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than just basic doubt so I'll tell you

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you might find this interesting so when

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I was in Germany you know I kind of like

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you know what I given up the

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philosophical life but before I take

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this job I'm gonna ask the question one

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more time I should probably go back to

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it I thought every five years five years

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will go by and I'm just gonna read ress

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the question have I learned anything if

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I come across anything new that has

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given me any indication one way or the

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other to believe that I might have some

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certain knowledge of God and I was like

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you know no I haven't seen any miracles

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and even if I did I would have

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questioned my own perception of them

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have I learned anything that's opened or

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closed the door one way or the other I

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was like no I'm back at square one

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there's nothing I can say with certain

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knowledge of God and then I had my

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Eureka moment I was like wait there is

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there's one thing I can say with certain

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knowledge of God it was a odd kernel

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it's not what I was expecting but I was

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like it's sitting on the computer screen

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because I typed out this sentence I was

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like it's sitting on the computer screen

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in front of me there's an empirical fact

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God is a word I can see it in Braille I

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can touch it if someone says it I can

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hear it

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so what can I say with certainty of God

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that it's a word okay well what does

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science say about words well it's a

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human construction something we evolved

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have the capacity for moreover it's a

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word that seems to exist or some version

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of it in every single culture from the

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beginning of humankind my next question

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is what the science say about universal

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behavioral patterns which takes me to

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sociobiology and the answer is it's

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because it's inherited it's wired into

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the app there it's instinct and at that

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moment I came up with this idea

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holy crap it's coming from inside our

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heads it's a perception we're wired with

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it and I wrote on a piece of paper the

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god part of the brain and I stuck it on

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the wall and I was like that's gonna be

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my next thing and there goes and you

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wrote this book it's a well written book

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and the book is well received so what

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was that whole process like real quickly

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sure I used to be the worst writer alive

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as a student I felt discouraged as far

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back as elementary school when I was all

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excited about the creativity of my ideas

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and the teacher would put red marks all

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over thing you know you didn't

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capitalize the first letter you're the

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punctuation is wrong so I was like you

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know what screw writing I'm good at math

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and science and all the other stuff I

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have a good memory I won't be a writer

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whatever

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and I really I took to that so the baton

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I was in high school and having to write

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papers I was like oh man I screwed

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myself this is getting difficult like

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and my writing was horrible it really

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was horrible and then when I was

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teaching when I was a high school

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history teacher I was like I've tried

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photography I worked as a sculptor I've

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done these different things

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I felt I wanted to do something creative

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but I was like it started up dawned on

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me like the thing that I had always been

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bad at and felt that I didn't need to

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know I'm starting to feel like might be

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the most powerful artistic medium which

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is words like I think I overlooked like

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the big picture he

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here and miss the bus but I'm not old

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and dead so maybe I should get back on

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the bus and see if I can learn to write

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so I started reading the classics and

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reading vocabulary and studying language

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really and punctuation and then when I

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came up with the idea like maybe I'll

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write a movie when I was teaching high

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school and bought that book how to write

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a screenplay um I thought well it's a

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screenplay I mean it's mostly like you

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know Steve and Lisa sitting on a park

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bench dialog Lisa hi how was your day

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you know I was like well I don't really

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need to be a great writer I need to be a

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great storyteller so I was like maybe

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00:12:05,999 --> 00:12:02,620
I'll find out but I think I can pull it

271
00:12:08,579 --> 00:12:06,009
off as far as the writing goes and then

272
00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:08,589
I all of a sudden was like wait now I'm

273
00:12:18,090 --> 00:12:13,930
writing a philosophy tome so whatever

274
00:12:21,660 --> 00:12:18,100
you read was after about a thousand

275
00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:21,670
edits from beginning to end starting

276
00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:23,730
over starting over

277
00:12:28,290 --> 00:12:26,290
iFit self-published my book was first

278
00:12:30,449 --> 00:12:28,300
universally rejected because I have no

279
00:12:34,050 --> 00:12:30,459
credentials in neuroscience so I opened

280
00:12:35,579 --> 00:12:34,060
rogue press and then I had boxes a book

281
00:12:37,350 --> 00:12:35,589
sitting around my apartment and

282
00:12:38,850 --> 00:12:37,360
someone's like well you got to market it

283
00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:38,860
and I was like I don't like that stuff

284
00:12:42,269 --> 00:12:39,970
and they're like well here's a phone

285
00:12:44,129 --> 00:12:42,279
number send them a press release maybe

286
00:12:46,949 --> 00:12:44,139
they'll put you on their show and that

287
00:12:50,509 --> 00:12:46,959
was art Bell and I guess given the show

288
00:12:53,250 --> 00:12:50,519
you do you're familiar with art Bell so

289
00:12:55,259 --> 00:12:53,260
20 minutes later I get a call this guy

290
00:12:56,970 --> 00:12:55,269
with like the most perfect deep voice

291
00:13:00,269 --> 00:12:56,980
and he's like we're gonna have yawn I

292
00:13:02,970 --> 00:13:00,279
was like okay he's like so how's this

293
00:13:05,300 --> 00:13:02,980
date work I was like okay he's like so

294
00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:05,310
you know the drill right I'm like yeah

295
00:13:11,730 --> 00:13:09,010
and I'm like what would Imperial

296
00:13:15,689 --> 00:13:11,740
Art Bell guy I'm like what millions of

297
00:13:20,670 --> 00:13:15,699
listeners honestly when I first got on

298
00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:20,680
art Bell admittedly I had a few puffs a

299
00:13:24,870 --> 00:13:22,810
weed before I went on but that didn't

300
00:13:27,269 --> 00:13:24,880
help I almost went into his full-blown

301
00:13:28,860 --> 00:13:27,279
panic attack and at one point I was deep

302
00:13:31,650 --> 00:13:28,870
into the theory and I was talking about

303
00:13:33,180 --> 00:13:31,660
the anxiety function and I have an

304
00:13:35,100 --> 00:13:33,190
anxiety attack

305
00:13:38,070 --> 00:13:35,110
it's on the phone so no one can see me

306
00:13:39,570 --> 00:13:38,080
so I've just sort of like held the phone

307
00:13:42,390 --> 00:13:39,580
and he's like hello are you are you

308
00:13:45,060 --> 00:13:42,400
still there and for like 20 seconds I

309
00:13:47,250 --> 00:13:45,070
was just like I was just about to hang

310
00:13:49,650 --> 00:13:47,260
up the phone like I am over my head I

311
00:13:51,090 --> 00:13:49,660
don't know what I'm doing and I was like

312
00:13:53,580 --> 00:13:51,100
come on pull it together man

313
00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:53,590
this could worked out and it got back on

314
00:13:57,270 --> 00:13:55,450
the phone and honestly like he was

315
00:13:59,730 --> 00:13:57,280
talking and it was all just like a blur

316
00:14:03,240 --> 00:13:59,740
like wall war and I was so nervous

317
00:14:05,610 --> 00:14:03,250
and finally I got my bearings and I

318
00:14:08,220 --> 00:14:05,620
started talking and then it went really

319
00:14:09,630 --> 00:14:08,230
well he was only gonna be on for like an

320
00:14:12,270 --> 00:14:09,640
hour and he had me on for the rest of

321
00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:12,280
the night and then he replayed that show

322
00:14:17,940 --> 00:14:14,530
like a week later and all of a sudden

323
00:14:22,890 --> 00:14:17,950
I'm seeing orders coming in like by the

324
00:14:27,540 --> 00:14:22,900
tens of thousands and my I was ranked

325
00:14:30,570 --> 00:14:27,550
for one day I was ranked on Amazon I was

326
00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:30,580
like the 17th top-selling book in the

327
00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:33,490
world I was between Angela's Ashes and

328
00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:35,890
Girl Interrupted at the time this was

329
00:14:42,420 --> 00:14:38,890
like 98 when I first wrote this and I

330
00:14:44,580 --> 00:14:42,430
was pretty young at the time so anyway

331
00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:44,590
the reason I'm saying so then I start

332
00:14:48,990 --> 00:14:46,570
selling books and one of the things

333
00:14:52,470 --> 00:14:49,000
people were like this is amazing these

334
00:14:55,610 --> 00:14:52,480
original ideas I love it however like

335
00:14:59,070 --> 00:14:55,620
did you get into did you have an editor

336
00:15:03,120 --> 00:14:59,080
it was still poorly written I still had

337
00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:03,130
a lot to go and then I then all of a

338
00:15:07,830 --> 00:15:04,690
sudden I was like oh my god I've been

339
00:15:10,710 --> 00:15:07,840
sending out this messed up book like I

340
00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:10,720
better get in gear and then I edited and

341
00:15:16,890 --> 00:15:14,250
edited I spent like six months editing

342
00:15:20,460 --> 00:15:16,900
non-stop went over the book from

343
00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:20,470
beginning to end by 50 times and cleaned

344
00:15:25,860 --> 00:15:23,290
it up and basically I've been cleaning

345
00:15:27,450 --> 00:15:25,870
up it up since it got sold to source

346
00:15:30,690 --> 00:15:27,460
books and then went into numerous

347
00:15:35,850 --> 00:15:30,700
languages when it's a hardcover but by

348
00:15:38,130 --> 00:15:35,860
that Edition the 2008 Edition I haven't

349
00:15:39,390 --> 00:15:38,140
touched it since honestly I'm terrified

350
00:15:41,310 --> 00:15:39,400
to open it

351
00:15:43,380 --> 00:15:41,320
I'll have a panic attack because I'm a

352
00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:43,390
better writer now probably and I'll see

353
00:15:46,470 --> 00:15:44,170
a million

354
00:15:49,769 --> 00:15:46,480
laws I can't even look at it I'll never

355
00:15:51,780 --> 00:15:49,779
open that book again but um but I was

356
00:15:54,090 --> 00:15:51,790
told enough times that it was well

357
00:15:56,190 --> 00:15:54,100
written so I was like and then at one

358
00:15:57,449 --> 00:15:56,200
point people like great book you know

359
00:15:59,490 --> 00:15:57,459
they're they want to talk about the

360
00:16:01,079 --> 00:15:59,500
ideas on a hey okay great Brooklyn what

361
00:16:02,970 --> 00:16:01,089
do you think of the writing like all I

362
00:16:06,509 --> 00:16:02,980
wanted to hear is people say like oh sir

363
00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:06,519
well wow that's that's amazing guy

364
00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:08,290
starts out saying hey I'm not very

365
00:16:10,439 --> 00:16:09,850
interesting there's not much to talk

366
00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:10,449
about me

367
00:16:15,060 --> 00:16:12,970
you got some amazing stories I mean just

368
00:16:17,310 --> 00:16:15,070
your whole background and then that art

369
00:16:19,019 --> 00:16:17,320
bell and your writing thing for any

370
00:16:23,310 --> 00:16:19,029
frustrated writers out there that's just

371
00:16:26,250 --> 00:16:23,320
fantastic stuff so persevere frustrated

372
00:16:29,220 --> 00:16:26,260
writers and read classics and study the

373
00:16:32,250 --> 00:16:29,230
way that the greats punctuate and string

374
00:16:35,220 --> 00:16:32,260
together their thoughts and if you

375
00:16:36,180 --> 00:16:35,230
persevere maybe you'll some of it'll rub

376
00:16:38,009 --> 00:16:36,190
off on you

377
00:16:40,740 --> 00:16:38,019
you have a buddy that's not exactly your

378
00:16:42,750 --> 00:16:40,750
story your story is you just go do it

379
00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:42,760
and just do what's next kind of thing

380
00:16:47,879 --> 00:16:45,370
and I think there's some magic in that

381
00:16:52,050 --> 00:16:47,889
too so I'll tell you what the let's

382
00:16:53,310 --> 00:16:52,060
let's jump off of that yeah so let's

383
00:16:56,130 --> 00:16:53,320
talk about all this stuff

384
00:16:59,579 --> 00:16:56,140
I'm obviously coming at this from a very

385
00:17:03,480 --> 00:16:59,589
different perspective you know my

386
00:17:06,539 --> 00:17:03,490
history is I was really just a business

387
00:17:08,429 --> 00:17:06,549
guy who got interested kind of like you

388
00:17:10,799 --> 00:17:08,439
and the big picture questions who are we

389
00:17:12,900 --> 00:17:10,809
why are we here and I kind of felt

390
00:17:15,299 --> 00:17:12,910
coming from the opposite perspective I

391
00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:15,309
didn't know for sure but I felt science

392
00:17:20,669 --> 00:17:17,890
maybe has something to offer here but

393
00:17:23,939 --> 00:17:20,679
these science guys seem to be missing

394
00:17:27,539 --> 00:17:23,949
the boat given the other science guys

395
00:17:29,700 --> 00:17:27,549
that I'm listening to and talking to so

396
00:17:32,039 --> 00:17:29,710
I was kind of like what gives who's

397
00:17:34,380 --> 00:17:32,049
right here and that was 10 years ago

398
00:17:37,890 --> 00:17:34,390
when I started this podcast and the

399
00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:37,900
podcast you know eventually and then I

400
00:17:42,390 --> 00:17:39,970
wrote a book along the way why science

401
00:17:43,620 --> 00:17:42,400
is wrong about almost everything which

402
00:17:45,030 --> 00:17:43,630
is kind of like the opposite of your

403
00:17:50,250 --> 00:17:45,040
book which is kind of interesting and

404
00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:50,260
the premise of my book is that if you

405
00:17:55,950 --> 00:17:53,490
get scientific it consciousness wrong

406
00:17:57,420 --> 00:17:55,960
then you really can't get anything in

407
00:18:01,050 --> 00:17:57,430
science right

408
00:18:02,820 --> 00:18:01,060
that consciousness as I don't know if

409
00:18:03,780 --> 00:18:02,830
you know or not cuz I just flashed up on

410
00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:03,790
the screen you know one of the things

411
00:18:08,850 --> 00:18:06,250
that kind of threw me for a loop as I

412
00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:08,860
did first of all the first thing I did

413
00:18:14,180 --> 00:18:10,330
when I was gonna set up this interview

414
00:18:16,620 --> 00:18:14,190
just so people know there's no

415
00:18:18,750 --> 00:18:16,630
sandbagging here I went and created a

416
00:18:21,120 --> 00:18:18,760
thread on my forum this is like two

417
00:18:23,010 --> 00:18:21,130
weeks ago and I invited you there to

418
00:18:25,050 --> 00:18:23,020
look at everyone's posts and stuff like

419
00:18:28,110 --> 00:18:25,060
that well let me play you this quote

420
00:18:31,950 --> 00:18:28,120
about consciousness from an interview I

421
00:18:35,010 --> 00:18:31,960
did with a very very smart guy I think

422
00:18:36,900 --> 00:18:35,020
philosopher Bernardo Kastrup but these

423
00:18:39,180 --> 00:18:36,910
are all people you'd recognize kind of

424
00:18:42,750 --> 00:18:39,190
coming from your camp and maybe that

425
00:18:45,360 --> 00:18:42,760
will launch us into a discussion about

426
00:18:47,700 --> 00:18:45,370
consciousness these people are just

427
00:18:49,260 --> 00:18:47,710
generally regarded as scientists as the

428
00:18:51,120 --> 00:18:49,270
mainstream scientist and we're talking

429
00:18:53,220 --> 00:18:51,130
about Richard Dawkins Lawrence Krauss

430
00:18:55,740 --> 00:18:53,230
Neil deGrasse Tyson I mean Neil deGrasse

431
00:18:58,830 --> 00:18:55,750
Tyson whether we like it or not is the

432
00:19:03,330 --> 00:18:58,840
face of science for many many many

433
00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:03,340
Americans so let's see what mainstream

434
00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:06,450
science has to say about consciousness

435
00:19:10,590 --> 00:19:09,010
here we go I'm going to play this clip

436
00:19:14,490 --> 00:19:10,600
you can see it there I'm going to play

437
00:19:16,770 --> 00:19:14,500
it you but you can say something about

438
00:19:19,830 --> 00:19:16,780
the question which you really would wish

439
00:19:20,970 --> 00:19:19,840
to know the answer to and that means for

440
00:19:23,820 --> 00:19:20,980
me it would be what

441
00:19:27,510 --> 00:19:23,830
what's consciousness because that's

442
00:19:33,990 --> 00:19:31,150
you know I think I agree not that you

443
00:19:37,360 --> 00:19:34,000
asked but what I think on this is

444
00:19:40,990 --> 00:19:37,370
consciousness has kind of baffled us for

445
00:19:42,820 --> 00:19:41,000
a while okay and evidence that we

446
00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:42,830
haven't a clue about what consciousness

447
00:19:48,670 --> 00:19:46,970
is is drawn from the from the fact of

448
00:19:51,130 --> 00:19:48,680
how many books are published on the

449
00:19:54,540 --> 00:19:51,140
topic right we're not really continuing

450
00:19:57,250 --> 00:19:54,550
to publish books not really on like

451
00:20:00,130 --> 00:19:57,260
Newtonian scissors it's done all right

452
00:20:02,050 --> 00:20:00,140
so so the fact that people keep

453
00:20:03,610 --> 00:20:02,060
publishing books on consciousness is the

454
00:20:05,260 --> 00:20:03,620
evidence we don't know anything about it

455
00:20:07,540 --> 00:20:05,270
because if we knew all about it you

456
00:20:09,379 --> 00:20:07,550
wouldn't have to keep published so so

457
00:20:19,549 --> 00:20:09,389
what I wonder

458
00:20:21,589 --> 00:20:19,559
really is no such thing as consciousness

459
00:20:23,180 --> 00:20:21,599
at all and that there's some other

460
00:20:25,369 --> 00:20:23,190
understanding of the functioning of the

461
00:20:29,540 --> 00:20:25,379
human brain that renders that question

462
00:20:32,930 --> 00:20:29,550
obsolete to that I gotta say like oh wow

463
00:20:40,780 --> 00:20:32,940
[Laughter]

464
00:20:54,100 --> 00:20:40,790
[Applause]

465
00:20:56,350 --> 00:20:54,110
okay what is so funny about that of

466
00:21:06,120 --> 00:20:56,360
course that last voice was Bill Nye the

467
00:21:09,190 --> 00:21:06,130
Science Guy bill was astonished I mean

468
00:21:09,910 --> 00:21:09,200
the idea that maybe consciousness is not

469
00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:09,920
there

470
00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:12,890
it's probably the weirdest stupidest

471
00:21:18,730 --> 00:21:16,010
idea ever conceived by a human thought I

472
00:21:21,460 --> 00:21:18,740
mean where does thought take place it

473
00:21:25,450 --> 00:21:21,470
takes place in consciousness so here we

474
00:21:27,670 --> 00:21:25,460
have consciousness speculating about the

475
00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:27,680
possibility that consciousness does not

476
00:21:33,420 --> 00:21:30,890
exist and it may not be there I mean the

477
00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:33,430
very thought is that in your face

478
00:21:37,180 --> 00:21:35,690
contradiction and the fact that

479
00:21:39,130 --> 00:21:37,190
something like this is not only

480
00:21:42,730 --> 00:21:39,140
seriously entertained but even

481
00:21:47,700 --> 00:21:42,740
verbalized by a person with the public

482
00:21:52,780 --> 00:21:47,710
exposure of the gentleman we just saw is

483
00:22:00,130 --> 00:21:52,790
a worrying sign of cultural sickness a

484
00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:00,140
very serious one okay maybe I didn't see

485
00:22:03,850 --> 00:22:01,850
that up right but you get the idea

486
00:22:07,890 --> 00:22:03,860
conscious you're kind of the fundamental

487
00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:07,900
question this what do you think okay so

488
00:22:16,900 --> 00:22:12,770
first of all I don't know why a roomful

489
00:22:19,330 --> 00:22:16,910
of supposedly important scientists are

490
00:22:23,530 --> 00:22:19,340
so confused about what I think is a

491
00:22:28,330 --> 00:22:23,540
pretty simple question that I believe

492
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:28,340
has been answered not to its full extent

493
00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:31,010
because we do not know the brain fully

494
00:22:39,940 --> 00:22:33,170
and probably never will within our

495
00:22:42,220 --> 00:22:39,950
lifetimes as however and I write in the

496
00:22:44,260 --> 00:22:42,230
book I have like subchapter I think

497
00:22:47,350 --> 00:22:44,270
called the neurophysiology of the soul

498
00:22:49,650 --> 00:22:47,360
and basically you know for me the

499
00:22:54,710 --> 00:22:49,660
question comes down to one of two things

500
00:22:58,639 --> 00:22:54,720
consciousness same thing with life spear

501
00:23:01,639 --> 00:22:58,649
or physical physiological is it is it

502
00:23:03,889 --> 00:23:01,649
the manifestation of some soulful entity

503
00:23:06,769 --> 00:23:03,899
some ghost in the machine some

504
00:23:10,100 --> 00:23:06,779
transcendental factor that resides

505
00:23:14,930 --> 00:23:10,110
within us or again is it a strictly

506
00:23:18,350 --> 00:23:14,940
physical entity my take and again I

507
00:23:21,950 --> 00:23:18,360
never went to school for neuroscience

508
00:23:25,249 --> 00:23:21,960
I'm not an MD but I've read a hell of a

509
00:23:30,019 --> 00:23:25,259
lot almost an encyclopedia amount worth

510
00:23:34,970 --> 00:23:30,029
of science and philosophy and my take

511
00:23:36,590 --> 00:23:34,980
away is that there's all the reason to

512
00:23:39,970 --> 00:23:36,600
believe that consciousness is a

513
00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:39,980
physiological experience that basically

514
00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:42,450
neuroscience lasts cognitive science

515
00:23:48,739 --> 00:23:45,690
lasts neurobiology if it's taught us

516
00:23:50,989 --> 00:23:48,749
anything it's taught us that all of that

517
00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:50,999
with all of that makes up what we

518
00:23:57,730 --> 00:23:53,129
consider ourselves to be our conscious

519
00:24:01,159 --> 00:23:57,740
experience so we've got sensation at the

520
00:24:06,230 --> 00:24:01,169
simplest level we feel things we hear

521
00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:06,240
things we have perception we absorb the

522
00:24:12,230 --> 00:24:08,610
information and make conclusions based

523
00:24:16,879 --> 00:24:12,240
on it and then cognition and emotion etc

524
00:24:19,220 --> 00:24:16,889
so that's the makeup of our being and

525
00:24:21,830 --> 00:24:19,230
then we have memory so it solidifies

526
00:24:26,389 --> 00:24:21,840
gives us a sense of identity all of

527
00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:26,399
these elements of consciousness can be

528
00:24:33,409 --> 00:24:30,090
reduced to various parts of the brain

529
00:24:36,769 --> 00:24:33,419
and what's been shown is when you damage

530
00:24:40,609 --> 00:24:36,779
those parts people suffer aphasia some

531
00:24:43,369 --> 00:24:40,619
stability or deficiency to that aspect

532
00:24:44,810 --> 00:24:43,379
of their conscious experience so like I

533
00:24:46,999 --> 00:24:44,820
people say like you know oh I'm gonna

534
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:47,009
you know when I die I'm gonna be in

535
00:24:52,580 --> 00:24:50,490
heaven with my family so I'll say like

536
00:24:54,230 --> 00:24:52,590
okay you'll be in heaven let's even

537
00:24:56,749 --> 00:24:54,240
assume that's true you're gonna go to

538
00:25:00,230 --> 00:24:56,759
heaven who you are is going to live

539
00:25:02,989 --> 00:25:00,240
forever you Joe is gonna be around for

540
00:25:06,379 --> 00:25:02,999
eternity but I say but let me ask what

541
00:25:07,940 --> 00:25:06,389
if what if Joe gets dementia Alzheimer's

542
00:25:12,169 --> 00:25:07,950
tomorrow

543
00:25:16,129 --> 00:25:12,179
and then you die a year into it where

544
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:16,139
your last self you know didn't know

545
00:25:20,539 --> 00:25:18,450
whether to you know go to the bathroom

546
00:25:22,820 --> 00:25:20,549
or eat an apple you didn't know the

547
00:25:24,919 --> 00:25:22,830
difference between the two you didn't

548
00:25:28,070 --> 00:25:24,929
remember the names of your own children

549
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:28,080
your wife let alone your own self so is

550
00:25:34,879 --> 00:25:32,010
Joe the demented going to be floating

551
00:25:37,789 --> 00:25:34,889
around in this eternal headspace for

552
00:25:40,490 --> 00:25:37,799
eternity or do you have this idealized

553
00:25:43,220 --> 00:25:40,500
version that it's you Joe now as you're

554
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:43,230
talking to me or maybe is it going to be

555
00:25:48,139 --> 00:25:45,210
Joe ten years ago or Joe when you were

556
00:25:50,419 --> 00:25:48,149
five we're all chameleons we go through

557
00:25:53,360 --> 00:25:50,429
where were a thousand different people

558
00:25:56,090 --> 00:25:53,370
in our lifetimes based on our periods of

559
00:25:59,000 --> 00:25:56,100
life so to me this let's pull this apart

560
00:26:00,830 --> 00:25:59,010
let's call it apart we're stacking a lot

561
00:26:02,299 --> 00:26:00,840
of different things together and I

562
00:26:04,639 --> 00:26:02,309
understand where you're going in terms

563
00:26:06,649 --> 00:26:04,649
of the limitations in terms of how

564
00:26:09,830 --> 00:26:06,659
people talk about the afterlife and all

565
00:26:12,139 --> 00:26:09,840
the rest of that what the reason I kind

566
00:26:14,930 --> 00:26:12,149
of deconstructed my thing the way that I

567
00:26:17,090 --> 00:26:14,940
did is that when you start to me when

568
00:26:20,049 --> 00:26:17,100
you start asking these questions you

569
00:26:22,460 --> 00:26:20,059
keep going further and further into this

570
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:22,470
physicalist kind of question other

571
00:26:27,950 --> 00:26:26,010
people call it materialism and so the

572
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:27,960
first thing you know cuz you kind of

573
00:26:32,870 --> 00:26:30,450
study their philosophy this is the

574
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:32,880
oldest question kind of in the world so

575
00:26:39,860 --> 00:26:36,450
there's Plato out there saying hey

576
00:26:42,860 --> 00:26:39,870
there's no physicalism right it's all

577
00:26:44,330 --> 00:26:42,870
thoughts it's all ideas and then you

578
00:26:46,310 --> 00:26:44,340
have this other thing it's like no we

579
00:26:51,350 --> 00:26:46,320
can break it all down into atoms and

580
00:26:53,779 --> 00:26:51,360
that discussion argument I'm going to

581
00:26:56,090 --> 00:26:53,789
bake continues on to the modern day

582
00:26:59,000 --> 00:26:56,100
right so if you really look at physics

583
00:27:01,759 --> 00:26:59,010
as we currently understand it is this

584
00:27:05,590 --> 00:27:01,769
battle from a hundred years ago between

585
00:27:09,919 --> 00:27:05,600
Einstein and Niels Bohr right and

586
00:27:11,810 --> 00:27:09,929
Einstein is saying hey Niels Bohr you're

587
00:27:14,299 --> 00:27:11,820
kind of coming at me with this spooky

588
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:14,309
action at a distance stuff which is

589
00:27:19,490 --> 00:27:17,129
consciousness is fundamental that's what

590
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:19,500
Niels Bohr is saying and Einstein saying

591
00:27:25,820 --> 00:27:21,770
no way I'm still holding

592
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:25,830
equals mc-squared and that M it could

593
00:27:29,030 --> 00:27:27,690
stand for materialism it stands for mass

594
00:27:33,290 --> 00:27:29,040
but it could just as well stand for

595
00:27:36,770 --> 00:27:33,300
materialism mm-hmm because I think there

596
00:27:40,190 --> 00:27:36,780
is matter is fundamental so the question

597
00:27:43,340 --> 00:27:40,200
then is is matter fundamental or is

598
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:43,350
consciousness fundamental and even

599
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:46,650
Einstein at the end of his life finally

600
00:27:53,090 --> 00:27:50,010
has to agree that every experiment that

601
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:53,100
has ever been done in quantum physics

602
00:27:59,930 --> 00:27:56,610
has confirmed the reality of the

603
00:28:03,590 --> 00:27:59,940
observer effect has confirmed the

604
00:28:08,030 --> 00:28:03,600
reality of spooky action at a distance

605
00:28:09,620 --> 00:28:08,040
of entangled particles and all that

606
00:28:11,090 --> 00:28:09,630
stuff and I'm gonna play one more clip

607
00:28:13,010 --> 00:28:11,100
to kind of reinforce that point so I

608
00:28:15,230 --> 00:28:13,020
just interviewed a guy I think he's a

609
00:28:19,580 --> 00:28:15,240
brilliant guys his name is Don Hoffman

610
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:19,590
dr. Donald Hoffman and he's a physicist

611
00:28:26,990 --> 00:28:23,490
and as at UC Irvine and we talked about

612
00:28:30,410 --> 00:28:27,000
this very topic so let me play another

613
00:28:32,060 --> 00:28:30,420
clip into you and then I'll get your get

614
00:28:35,030 --> 00:28:32,070
your view on the whole thing of what I

615
00:28:37,930 --> 00:28:35,040
just laid out there how can science

616
00:28:40,610 --> 00:28:37,940
science as we know it be so wrong about

617
00:28:44,150 --> 00:28:40,620
consciousness I mean we're talking about

618
00:28:47,770 --> 00:28:44,160
a situation where poll after poll shows

619
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:47,780
that 90% of people in the United States

620
00:28:53,210 --> 00:28:51,330
completely disagree with this biological

621
00:28:54,980 --> 00:28:53,220
robot meaningless universe brain

622
00:28:57,590 --> 00:28:54,990
centered idea that we have about

623
00:29:00,590 --> 00:28:57,600
consciousness so the real question I

624
00:29:02,780 --> 00:29:00,600
guess I had is how can we really trust

625
00:29:05,690 --> 00:29:02,790
science going forward you're a great

626
00:29:09,170 --> 00:29:05,700
advocate of science you speak eloquently

627
00:29:11,780 --> 00:29:09,180
about the scientific method about how

628
00:29:14,420 --> 00:29:11,790
beautiful science is done properly but I

629
00:29:16,700 --> 00:29:14,430
guess I'd turn it around can we really

630
00:29:20,570 --> 00:29:16,710
trust science when they dropped the ball

631
00:29:23,690 --> 00:29:20,580
so badly already I agree that the

632
00:29:26,150 --> 00:29:23,700
current theories of consciousness among

633
00:29:29,260 --> 00:29:26,160
my scientific colleagues really do drop

634
00:29:33,380 --> 00:29:29,270
the ball they they really start with an

635
00:29:35,340 --> 00:29:33,390
unconscious objective reality of space

636
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:35,350
time and matter and they try to boot up

637
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:39,730
from that and and I you know I of course

638
00:29:43,980 --> 00:29:41,050
I disagree with him I think that that's

639
00:29:45,900 --> 00:29:43,990
not the right way to go about it and and

640
00:29:47,700 --> 00:29:45,910
many scientists still have a feeling

641
00:29:49,530 --> 00:29:47,710
that you know if that's what

642
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:49,540
spirituality means at all then I will

643
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:50,290
have none of it

644
00:29:57,090 --> 00:29:52,930
and the other aspect to it is they feel

645
00:29:59,430 --> 00:29:57,100
like look science made great strides in

646
00:30:01,290 --> 00:29:59,440
the using the assumption that space-time

647
00:30:03,690 --> 00:30:01,300
and unconscious matter are the

648
00:30:05,670 --> 00:30:03,700
foundations and it's it's truly stunning

649
00:30:07,350 --> 00:30:05,680
what's happened in the last three three

650
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:07,360
and a half centuries it's it is

651
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:10,090
completely revolutionized our

652
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:11,770
understanding of the universe the

653
00:30:15,900 --> 00:30:13,690
technology that's come out has been

654
00:30:20,910 --> 00:30:15,910
stunning and it's raised humanity's

655
00:30:23,190 --> 00:30:20,920
level of life dramatically so so there's

656
00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:23,200
this feeling among the scientists that

657
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:27,370
look the physicalist framework was our

658
00:30:31,260 --> 00:30:29,170
way of getting away from the the

659
00:30:33,660 --> 00:30:31,270
weirdness of the spiritual traditions

660
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:33,670
and breaking free liquid as well look

661
00:30:39,150 --> 00:30:35,770
what it's done and it has been

662
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:39,160
dramatically successful so that's part

663
00:30:43,710 --> 00:30:42,010
of where they're coming from so if I can

664
00:30:45,330 --> 00:30:43,720
add just one little piece because I

665
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:45,340
don't know if I'm making myself clear

666
00:30:51,660 --> 00:30:47,490
and all this or not

667
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:51,670
physicalism materialism is just dead

668
00:30:57,720 --> 00:30:54,850
it's a non-issue experimentally it fails

669
00:31:00,300 --> 00:30:57,730
over and over again in this idea that

670
00:31:02,490 --> 00:31:00,310
consciousness is fundamental is what

671
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:02,500
wins the day in experiment after

672
00:31:08,670 --> 00:31:06,130
experiment so mind equals brain mind

673
00:31:11,310 --> 00:31:08,680
brain is generating consciousness is

674
00:31:13,910 --> 00:31:11,320
just kind of no longer at the table so

675
00:31:18,420 --> 00:31:13,920
what Don Hoffman is saying he's kind of

676
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:18,430
trying to feel some compassion for neil

677
00:31:22,230 --> 00:31:20,770
degrasse tyson and Richard Dawkins and

678
00:31:25,260 --> 00:31:22,240
the rest of these guys who are still

679
00:31:28,230 --> 00:31:25,270
tied to this old model that fails over

680
00:31:30,690 --> 00:31:28,240
and over again experimentally so how are

681
00:31:33,210 --> 00:31:30,700
you processing all that okay couple

682
00:31:36,210 --> 00:31:33,220
comments so first of all one of the

683
00:31:38,670 --> 00:31:36,220
comments you made during that show was

684
00:31:42,620 --> 00:31:38,680
that like 90% of Americans disagree with

685
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:42,630
the biological robot model first of all

686
00:31:48,899 --> 00:31:46,930
the mid the opinions of the masses the

687
00:31:51,749 --> 00:31:48,909
mostly uneducated mass

688
00:31:55,049 --> 00:31:51,759
is the uneducated masses that gave us

689
00:31:58,409 --> 00:31:55,059
the government we have today don't

690
00:32:01,349 --> 00:31:58,419
represent to me a valid or viable if I

691
00:32:05,759 --> 00:32:01,359
wanted to put together a new technology

692
00:32:08,460 --> 00:32:05,769
some new type of nuclear missile I would

693
00:32:10,769 --> 00:32:08,470
not say hey mass's let's let's let's

694
00:32:14,239 --> 00:32:10,779
think tank on this I would look for the

695
00:32:16,889 --> 00:32:14,249
point zero one percent who are

696
00:32:19,469 --> 00:32:16,899
diligently spending their life studying

697
00:32:21,839 --> 00:32:19,479
these specific things for my answers so

698
00:32:24,419 --> 00:32:21,849
I want to just discount the notion that

699
00:32:27,539 --> 00:32:24,429
we can say what the majority opinion

700
00:32:33,930 --> 00:32:27,549
represents anything indicative of truth

701
00:32:38,389 --> 00:32:33,940
or reason not my next point is we can't

702
00:32:46,830 --> 00:32:42,149
paradoxes in quantum realities to

703
00:32:49,379 --> 00:32:46,840
consciousness so the brain I don't

704
00:32:51,450 --> 00:32:49,389
believe is a quantum experience the

705
00:32:56,119 --> 00:32:51,460
brain isn't a Tom experience the brain

706
00:32:59,460 --> 00:32:56,129
and all things human basically abide by

707
00:33:02,519 --> 00:32:59,470
Newtonian principles that's what's given

708
00:33:04,999 --> 00:33:02,529
us the mechanics of our day is that they

709
00:33:07,950 --> 00:33:05,009
work gravity still works even though

710
00:33:11,639 --> 00:33:07,960
quantum realities are real when you're

711
00:33:14,070 --> 00:33:11,649
dealing with subatomic particles you

712
00:33:15,659 --> 00:33:14,080
have a different set of standards than

713
00:33:17,789 --> 00:33:15,669
when you have atomic particles the

714
00:33:19,799 --> 00:33:17,799
materialism that comes in atoms that's

715
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:19,809
just not that's you see that's what I

716
00:33:26,039 --> 00:33:22,690
guess Don Hoffman is saying if you drill

717
00:33:28,950 --> 00:33:26,049
into it that was the view like 20 years

718
00:33:30,979 --> 00:33:28,960
ago but these experiments of like

719
00:33:34,409 --> 00:33:30,989
entanglement that you're referring to

720
00:33:36,930 --> 00:33:34,419
they've got them bigger and bigger up to

721
00:33:38,849 --> 00:33:36,940
the atomic level up to the cellular

722
00:33:42,389 --> 00:33:38,859
level they now can even show

723
00:33:44,039 --> 00:33:42,399
entanglement that is viewable by I don't

724
00:33:46,139 --> 00:33:44,049
know any way to say entanglement what do

725
00:33:48,119 --> 00:33:46,149
you mean fine entanglement

726
00:33:50,299 --> 00:33:48,129
do you understand idea of quantum

727
00:33:52,979 --> 00:33:50,309
entanglement and the observer effect

728
00:33:55,979 --> 00:33:52,989
yeah I know yeah I mean I'm aware of the

729
00:33:58,950 --> 00:33:55,989
observer effect you know Schrodinger's

730
00:34:00,539 --> 00:33:58,960
cat and all ROM and Einstein this whole

731
00:34:02,460 --> 00:34:00,549
thing of spooky out of action at a

732
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:02,470
distance I mean these are the things

733
00:34:04,620 --> 00:34:02,770
that

734
00:34:08,370 --> 00:34:04,630
these guys were debating right because

735
00:34:11,730 --> 00:34:08,380
first let me let me premise also so you

736
00:34:13,139 --> 00:34:11,740
know whatever whatever debate we have

737
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:13,149
and you're gonna have your beliefs and

738
00:34:17,550 --> 00:34:15,130
I'm gonna have mine I can tell you I've

739
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:17,560
like read these books thought this

740
00:34:24,210 --> 00:34:21,610
through I am an unyielding materialist I

741
00:34:26,610 --> 00:34:24,220
believe that consciousness is a physical

742
00:34:28,590 --> 00:34:26,620
reality end of story and I can tell you

743
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:28,600
why I think those things but you don't

744
00:34:31,950 --> 00:34:30,370
believe it you just think that's what

745
00:34:34,500 --> 00:34:31,960
the science says right because the

746
00:34:37,169 --> 00:34:34,510
science went against you that you'd go

747
00:34:40,770 --> 00:34:37,179
with what the science is or do you have

748
00:34:44,340 --> 00:34:40,780
some kind of belief that I mean besides

749
00:34:46,919 --> 00:34:44,350
just like sort of it adds up it passes

750
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:46,929
the common-sense test no it's validated

751
00:34:53,130 --> 00:34:50,770
by what I consider grounded scientific

752
00:34:54,419 --> 00:34:53,140
principles so and let me just also at

753
00:34:56,820 --> 00:34:54,429
this point since we're on the

754
00:34:59,670 --> 00:34:56,830
conversation so you're kind of alluding

755
00:35:02,760 --> 00:34:59,680
to that these old models of science are

756
00:35:05,580 --> 00:35:02,770
burnt to the ground they're discarded we

757
00:35:09,110 --> 00:35:05,590
all know better but who knows better I

758
00:35:12,150 --> 00:35:09,120
mean to me that's a fringe element the

759
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:12,160
skeptics the believers in various forms

760
00:35:15,900 --> 00:35:13,810
of magical thinking that I've come

761
00:35:18,630 --> 00:35:15,910
across doing a lot of these radio shows

762
00:35:21,420 --> 00:35:18,640
even someone like art bell to me UF

763
00:35:22,980 --> 00:35:21,430
ology as a form of magical thinking does

764
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:22,990
that mean I don't believe that aliens

765
00:35:27,990 --> 00:35:25,210
exist somewhere in the universe I

766
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:28,000
absolutely do believe they exist do I

767
00:35:32,550 --> 00:35:29,530
believe that they've ever visited earth

768
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:32,560
or ever will visit her no way I don't

769
00:35:36,990 --> 00:35:34,570
believe that's possible within our

770
00:35:39,660 --> 00:35:37,000
lifetimes the nearest star Alpha

771
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:39,670
Centauri alone is too far but again

772
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:41,530
these are separate but not to digress

773
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:44,530
because that's a good-ass but hold on I

774
00:35:53,670 --> 00:35:50,050
mean New York Times mm December 2017

775
00:35:55,410 --> 00:35:53,680
it's on the cover that the Department of

776
00:35:59,190 --> 00:35:55,420
Defense has acknowledged that they've

777
00:36:00,660 --> 00:35:59,200
encountered these UFOs right off the

778
00:36:03,210 --> 00:36:00,670
coast here of California and they'll

779
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:03,220
show you the videos and they operate at

780
00:36:08,430 --> 00:36:06,490
levels beyond anything that is whatever

781
00:36:09,900 --> 00:36:08,440
whatever you're alluding to I don't I

782
00:36:12,450 --> 00:36:09,910
don't personally I don't believe it's

783
00:36:14,100 --> 00:36:12,460
real so hold it but how can you talk

784
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:14,110
about the New York Times I'm talking

785
00:36:16,230 --> 00:36:15,610
about you can go watch the videos I'm

786
00:36:17,970 --> 00:36:16,240
talking about

787
00:36:20,130 --> 00:36:17,980
partment of Defense I mean this is

788
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:20,140
relevant in the sense that even if the

789
00:36:25,890 --> 00:36:22,410
Department of Defense decided to release

790
00:36:27,420 --> 00:36:25,900
some information like that I don't

791
00:36:30,240 --> 00:36:27,430
necessarily even believe that their

792
00:36:32,910 --> 00:36:30,250
intention is for all I know it's just to

793
00:36:35,940 --> 00:36:32,920
like distract people from something else

794
00:36:38,700 --> 00:36:35,950
they really want us not to know I don't

795
00:36:41,190 --> 00:36:38,710
necessarily until the scientific

796
00:36:43,530 --> 00:36:41,200
community at large the people who are

797
00:36:46,170 --> 00:36:43,540
like little weevils trying to dig up

798
00:36:48,270 --> 00:36:46,180
information all day long they exist in

799
00:36:50,190 --> 00:36:48,280
the universities around the planet and

800
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:50,200
that's all they do they're like weevils

801
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:51,970
digging up information trying to uncover

802
00:36:56,970 --> 00:36:54,490
some new fad yeah that's all they're

803
00:36:58,920 --> 00:36:56,980
interested in and with all these weevils

804
00:37:03,000 --> 00:36:58,930
running around trying to unroot the

805
00:37:03,930 --> 00:37:03,010
truth I still consider what you're

806
00:37:07,050 --> 00:37:03,940
talking about

807
00:37:09,570 --> 00:37:07,060
fringe elements because you can't I can

808
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:09,580
go to a university anywhere on earth and

809
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:13,890
I can study biology physics chemistry

810
00:37:19,590 --> 00:37:16,930
you name it all of the various fields of

811
00:37:24,330 --> 00:37:19,600
science none of the sciences will offer

812
00:37:28,710 --> 00:37:24,340
me a course in UF ology or reincarnation

813
00:37:31,350 --> 00:37:28,720
or transmigration of the soul or the

814
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:31,360
study of the soul let's study the soul

815
00:37:37,500 --> 00:37:34,330
oh I have a PhD in the soul I got it

816
00:37:41,310 --> 00:37:37,510
from Harvard I took 20 courses all about

817
00:37:43,650 --> 00:37:41,320
how the soul is real the mere fact to me

818
00:37:46,020 --> 00:37:43,660
that is one of the proofs in the pudding

819
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:46,030
in that all of these weevils who are

820
00:37:48,900 --> 00:37:46,930
trying to find the truth

821
00:37:52,380 --> 00:37:48,910
none of them think it's legitimate or

822
00:37:54,630 --> 00:37:52,390
valid enough and not one technology or

823
00:37:58,020 --> 00:37:54,640
advancement has come through the belief

824
00:37:59,880 --> 00:37:58,030
in what I all of these various forms of

825
00:38:02,250 --> 00:37:59,890
again would I call magical thinking and

826
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:02,260
let me just get to the core point of my

827
00:38:09,810 --> 00:38:05,290
book the God part of the brain what I'm

828
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:09,820
suggesting is humanity is born we're

829
00:38:15,240 --> 00:38:12,970
wired with a lens in our head that

830
00:38:19,470 --> 00:38:15,250
basically which self with the advent of

831
00:38:21,390 --> 00:38:19,480
self conscious awareness humans became

832
00:38:22,740 --> 00:38:21,400
the most powerful species on earth that

833
00:38:27,030 --> 00:38:22,750
enabled us the power of self

834
00:38:28,830 --> 00:38:27,040
modification but that one adaptation at

835
00:38:30,030 --> 00:38:28,840
the same time how to draw back it made

836
00:38:32,970 --> 00:38:30,040
us aware of

837
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:32,980
mortalities so when saying I am I exist

838
00:38:37,530 --> 00:38:35,890
I don't have to wait a million years for

839
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:37,540
natural selection and give me a thicker

840
00:38:42,870 --> 00:38:40,330
coat of fur I can say I am cold and I

841
00:38:45,510 --> 00:38:42,880
can sell myself one self modification

842
00:38:49,410 --> 00:38:45,520
most powerful species on earth but by

843
00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:49,420
saying I I am cold I also can say I am

844
00:38:54,810 --> 00:38:52,450
going to die and humans become the first

845
00:38:58,200 --> 00:38:54,820
animal to experience existential angst

846
00:39:01,260 --> 00:38:58,210
and I believe that in order to help us

847
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:01,270
survive this unique awareness that we

848
00:39:16,050 --> 00:39:13,570
have you still can you still I believe

849
00:39:17,670 --> 00:39:16,060
that I said okay well if I'm gonna

850
00:39:20,100 --> 00:39:17,680
suggest that there are actually parts of

851
00:39:22,260 --> 00:39:20,110
our brain generating these perceptions I

852
00:39:25,290 --> 00:39:22,270
have to have a reason a rationale

853
00:39:27,720 --> 00:39:25,300
because nothing evolves for no reason so

854
00:39:29,490 --> 00:39:27,730
why would we have evolved this now this

855
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:29,500
is all speculative event but this is

856
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:32,410
what I came up with I made a list what

857
00:39:37,740 --> 00:39:35,050
makes humans unique well we have we have

858
00:39:41,820 --> 00:39:37,750
language capacities that other animals

859
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:41,830
don't have we have music abilities we

860
00:39:45,570 --> 00:39:43,690
have math abilities we have these higher

861
00:39:47,820 --> 00:39:45,580
emotions we have self conscious

862
00:39:49,350 --> 00:39:47,830
awareness so like hmm okay that one's

863
00:39:51,060 --> 00:39:49,360
actually I think the one that's the most

864
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:51,070
unique that makes us stand out the most

865
00:39:57,090 --> 00:39:53,530
and it was as a result of self conscious

866
00:39:59,070 --> 00:39:57,100
awareness that humans became again the

867
00:40:01,320 --> 00:39:59,080
first organism to be aware of their own

868
00:40:03,750 --> 00:40:01,330
mortalities inevitable death and I

869
00:40:06,510 --> 00:40:03,760
believe that the anxiety created by that

870
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:06,520
awareness was so overwhelming was here

871
00:40:11,070 --> 00:40:08,290
for billions of years you had life on

872
00:40:14,190 --> 00:40:11,080
Earth dealing with death simple on a

873
00:40:16,290 --> 00:40:14,200
simple mechanism of fight or flee and we

874
00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:16,300
have anxiety built into us pain

875
00:40:21,900 --> 00:40:20,050
functions to make us avoid those things

876
00:40:23,220 --> 00:40:21,910
that jeopardize our existence suddenly

877
00:40:25,590 --> 00:40:23,230
an animal comes in the picture that

878
00:40:27,300 --> 00:40:25,600
realizes there's nowhere to run and

879
00:40:29,370 --> 00:40:27,310
there's nothing to fight I could build

880
00:40:33,870 --> 00:40:29,380
the biggest castle in the universe I'm

881
00:40:36,060 --> 00:40:33,880
gonna die the anxiety created the

882
00:40:38,250 --> 00:40:36,070
insufferable anxiety created by that

883
00:40:40,470 --> 00:40:38,260
awareness I believe was so overwhelming

884
00:40:42,720 --> 00:40:40,480
that it forced the selection of an

885
00:40:43,830 --> 00:40:42,730
evolutionary adaptation mechanisms in

886
00:40:47,250 --> 00:40:43,840
the brain that

887
00:40:49,770 --> 00:40:47,260
compel us to believe in some form of a

888
00:40:51,180 --> 00:40:49,780
spiritual reality some form of magical

889
00:40:53,820 --> 00:40:51,190
thinking and it takes place in many

890
00:40:55,740 --> 00:40:53,830
different forms which is why when I hear

891
00:40:57,930 --> 00:40:55,750
even scientists debate or people say

892
00:41:00,330 --> 00:40:57,940
like well this scientists and they're a

893
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:00,340
PhD in an MD and they won the Nobel

894
00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:03,370
Prize and they believed in God so as if

895
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:05,650
that in itself is an argument and to me

896
00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:07,690
that's not the argument at all

897
00:41:11,940 --> 00:41:09,370
to me it's like yeah that makes sense

898
00:41:15,180 --> 00:41:11,950
because the majority of humans are

899
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:15,190
compelled to perceive to filter all

900
00:41:20,790 --> 00:41:18,010
their reality through the spiritual lens

901
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:20,800
and to justify and come up and jump

902
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:22,810
through somersaults to come up with ways

903
00:41:28,170 --> 00:41:26,170
that justify to themselves what that

904
00:41:31,140 --> 00:41:28,180
these things are real because it's the

905
00:41:33,870 --> 00:41:31,150
only way we can survive and amidst a

906
00:41:36,090 --> 00:41:33,880
mortal experience but Matthew that's all

907
00:41:38,310 --> 00:41:36,100
good but it's just kind of your story

908
00:41:40,650 --> 00:41:38,320
and you keep kind of mixing in I believe

909
00:41:42,030 --> 00:41:40,660
this I believe that and I keep telling

910
00:41:44,850 --> 00:41:42,040
you I just keep going back to the

911
00:41:46,350 --> 00:41:44,860
science so I go back to Don Hoffman if

912
00:41:48,540 --> 00:41:46,360
you want to go back to him and he will

913
00:41:50,550 --> 00:41:48,550
tell you and we kind of got off the

914
00:41:54,900 --> 00:41:50,560
tracker he will tell you there has never

915
00:41:58,190 --> 00:41:54,910
been one experiment that's disconfirmed

916
00:42:02,550 --> 00:41:58,200
the reality of this consciousness

917
00:42:04,410 --> 00:42:02,560
appears to be fundamental in this in

918
00:42:06,720 --> 00:42:04,420
this country consciousness appears to be

919
00:42:09,300 --> 00:42:06,730
fundamental paradigm simple question do

920
00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:09,310
you believe in ghosts I believe in

921
00:42:15,210 --> 00:42:12,970
ghosts yeah well I don't even know what

922
00:42:18,420 --> 00:42:15,220
a ghost is but yeah well then I'll give

923
00:42:20,670 --> 00:42:18,430
you let me just let me go up I'll play

924
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:20,680
another clip because you know to me

925
00:42:26,670 --> 00:42:23,890
where I went with this is just okay if

926
00:42:28,050 --> 00:42:26,680
if there's these really smart people who

927
00:42:30,630 --> 00:42:28,060
have reason to believe that

928
00:42:32,100 --> 00:42:30,640
consciousness is fundamental and like

929
00:42:34,350 --> 00:42:32,110
you said I mean I don't understand your

930
00:42:35,850 --> 00:42:34,360
logic when you say I'm a materialist I

931
00:42:38,490 --> 00:42:35,860
go well I you're just gonna follow the

932
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:38,500
data and you go no I'm a materialist I'm

933
00:42:42,030 --> 00:42:39,970
just gonna believe in the material

934
00:42:47,010 --> 00:42:42,040
reality well it's like anything you're

935
00:42:49,910 --> 00:42:47,020
not playing the science earlier I

936
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:49,920
believe every aspect of consciousness

937
00:42:57,190 --> 00:42:53,890
perception sensation emotion ignition

938
00:43:00,099 --> 00:42:57,200
you went has been all those broken down

939
00:43:02,140 --> 00:43:00,109
here's the neurophysiological responses

940
00:43:04,150 --> 00:43:02,150
maybe but this is what that would

941
00:43:05,980 --> 00:43:04,160
counter that if consciousness is

942
00:43:07,809 --> 00:43:05,990
fundamental there's no debate but

943
00:43:11,620 --> 00:43:07,819
there's some if we get banged in the

944
00:43:13,390 --> 00:43:11,630
head or fun dispute well that's what I

945
00:43:16,660 --> 00:43:13,400
was just gonna say no one would argue

946
00:43:19,569 --> 00:43:16,670
that there is this relationship between

947
00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:19,579
consciousness no matter what it is and

948
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:22,130
the physical instrument that is

949
00:43:27,099 --> 00:43:23,930
processing that conscious okay the

950
00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:27,109
bridge is the brain that's why I come on

951
00:43:32,829 --> 00:43:30,530
Matt Matthew so let me play this clip

952
00:43:35,950 --> 00:43:32,839
because we're the research then takes me

953
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:35,960
is then you got to go look and it's not

954
00:43:41,620 --> 00:43:38,410
my kind of choice it's just where the

955
00:43:44,010 --> 00:43:41,630
discussion goes well I'd rather just

956
00:43:49,240 --> 00:43:44,020
talk with you referencing other people's

957
00:43:52,359 --> 00:43:49,250
supporting what you're saying reference

958
00:43:55,420 --> 00:43:52,369
why would we not want to reference the

959
00:43:57,700 --> 00:43:55,430
best experts in the world who have

960
00:43:59,530 --> 00:43:57,710
looked at these questions why did we

961
00:44:01,480 --> 00:43:59,540
want to just hear two guys that have

962
00:44:03,339 --> 00:44:01,490
opinions and then I thought this and

963
00:44:04,450 --> 00:44:03,349
then I thought that no but I want to ask

964
00:44:06,460 --> 00:44:04,460
you but I want to know what you're

965
00:44:08,890 --> 00:44:06,470
thinking so you're saying there's the

966
00:44:11,859 --> 00:44:08,900
brain and you're saying admittedly the

967
00:44:14,859 --> 00:44:11,869
brain plays some role in conscious

968
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:14,869
experience I'm just curious what do you

969
00:44:21,849 --> 00:44:18,770
believe is the origin of the other part

970
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:21,859
what is the transcendental quality that

971
00:44:26,170 --> 00:44:24,410
you believe resides in humans either in

972
00:44:28,930 --> 00:44:26,180
their heads or maybe it's in their toes

973
00:44:33,220 --> 00:44:28,940
wherever it's residing what is the

974
00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:33,230
unknown element that also plays a role

975
00:44:39,309 --> 00:44:36,530
it's not just the brain what is the

976
00:44:40,990 --> 00:44:39,319
ghost in the machine to you well let me

977
00:44:42,250 --> 00:44:41,000
answer that question with another

978
00:44:45,039 --> 00:44:42,260
question

979
00:44:46,870 --> 00:44:45,049
okay then does consciousness begin a

980
00:44:50,289 --> 00:44:46,880
bunch of questions when does

981
00:44:53,799 --> 00:44:50,299
consciousness end what is necessary and

982
00:44:56,500 --> 00:44:53,809
sufficient to cause consciousness who is

983
00:44:58,900 --> 00:44:56,510
conscious are you conscious am i

984
00:45:00,910 --> 00:44:58,910
conscious how do you know our animals

985
00:45:03,309 --> 00:45:00,920
conscious is the cat that's meowing at

986
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:03,319
my door to get you in your cushy doesn't

987
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:05,210
like getting locked out is she conscious

988
00:45:10,540 --> 00:45:08,210
so these are the questions and the best

989
00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:10,550
research out there to be

990
00:45:14,950 --> 00:45:12,530
again to even answer these questions is

991
00:45:16,420 --> 00:45:14,960
the near-death experience research and

992
00:45:18,460 --> 00:45:16,430
that's the clip we'll play in a minute

993
00:45:23,410 --> 00:45:18,470
but first I'll give a chance to respond

994
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:23,420
to that okay so I'm responding to what

995
00:45:26,350 --> 00:45:24,890
doubled out you rolled out where does

996
00:45:27,850 --> 00:45:26,360
consciousness again where does it end

997
00:45:29,410 --> 00:45:27,860
does the cat that meows have

998
00:45:31,450 --> 00:45:29,420
consciousness or what you want me to

999
00:45:33,970 --> 00:45:31,460
address all of it well I think the ROI

1000
00:45:35,380 --> 00:45:33,980
yes you were actually hurt imperfectly

1001
00:45:38,170 --> 00:45:35,390
because they're all wrapped into one

1002
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:38,180
well does consciousness begin when does

1003
00:45:43,900 --> 00:45:40,850
consciousness end what is necessary and

1004
00:45:48,100 --> 00:45:43,910
sufficient to cause conscious experience

1005
00:45:51,070 --> 00:45:48,110
so I believe that pretty much I mean I

1006
00:45:54,070 --> 00:45:51,080
don't know if I would say a plant for an

1007
00:45:57,430 --> 00:45:54,080
amoeba has consciousness perhaps it's a

1008
00:46:01,350 --> 00:45:57,440
it could be defined by the beginnings of

1009
00:46:05,620 --> 00:46:01,360
those species that first had a ganglia a

1010
00:46:08,530 --> 00:46:05,630
collected center for where experiences

1011
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:08,540
it comes from so does the cat of

1012
00:46:15,700 --> 00:46:12,410
consciousness yes all of these various

1013
00:46:18,100 --> 00:46:15,710
animals at least with ganglia and/or a

1014
00:46:20,590 --> 00:46:18,110
brain I would say have consciousness

1015
00:46:23,670 --> 00:46:20,600
do they have self conscious awareness as

1016
00:46:26,500 --> 00:46:23,680
part of the experience no well first

1017
00:46:28,900 --> 00:46:26,510
witness are they aware of are they aware

1018
00:46:31,510 --> 00:46:28,910
of a world around them do they interact

1019
00:46:33,370 --> 00:46:31,520
with the world around them absolutely do

1020
00:46:36,070 --> 00:46:33,380
they have feelings they have sensations

1021
00:46:38,710 --> 00:46:36,080
can they experience pain yes so if that

1022
00:46:43,060 --> 00:46:38,720
makes consciousness we're all conscious

1023
00:46:45,670 --> 00:46:43,070
however as far as when does

1024
00:46:47,830 --> 00:46:45,680
consciousness begin and if I'm assuming

1025
00:46:49,570 --> 00:46:47,840
that it's true for the cat as much as

1026
00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:49,580
this for me then I would say

1027
00:46:56,620 --> 00:46:53,330
consciousness begins when ever I guess

1028
00:46:59,770 --> 00:46:56,630
in the embryonic process when we are

1029
00:47:03,130 --> 00:46:59,780
developing in our mothers wombs or in an

1030
00:47:06,550 --> 00:47:03,140
egg or wherever we've evolved from that

1031
00:47:10,260 --> 00:47:06,560
basically once the stirrings of a brain

1032
00:47:12,940 --> 00:47:10,270
and the first stirrings of an awareness

1033
00:47:14,770 --> 00:47:12,950
whatever that might be even maybe maybe

1034
00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:14,780
most animals their first conscious

1035
00:47:19,540 --> 00:47:17,090
experiences hearing their mother's heart

1036
00:47:21,310 --> 00:47:19,550
if they're if they're a mammal but

1037
00:47:22,780 --> 00:47:21,320
Matthew you're just kind of weak you

1038
00:47:24,270 --> 00:47:22,790
just kind of winging it here making

1039
00:47:26,610 --> 00:47:24,280
stuff up let me play

1040
00:47:28,650 --> 00:47:26,620
really the reason I went to near-death

1041
00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:28,660
experience research is it gets right to

1042
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:30,970
this question if we can show that

1043
00:47:36,720 --> 00:47:33,610
consciousness extends beyond a period

1044
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:36,730
when we have normal brain function or I

1045
00:47:43,140 --> 00:47:40,170
should add if consciousness survives

1046
00:47:45,780 --> 00:47:43,150
when the brain is severely compromised

1047
00:47:48,720 --> 00:47:45,790
in a way that neuroscience can't explain

1048
00:47:51,930 --> 00:47:48,730
how consciousness could exist then we

1049
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:51,940
have a whole different scenario we have

1050
00:47:56,550 --> 00:47:54,010
an answer to your questions and your

1051
00:47:58,200 --> 00:47:56,560
beliefs that you've said so that's what

1052
00:48:01,020 --> 00:47:58,210
I want I've interviewed some of the top

1053
00:48:03,270 --> 00:48:01,030
near-death experience researchers in the

1054
00:48:08,910 --> 00:48:03,280
world and real near-death experience I

1055
00:48:10,430 --> 00:48:08,920
know them in your book so let's play

1056
00:48:13,170 --> 00:48:10,440
Geoff alone

1057
00:48:16,130 --> 00:48:13,180
so dr. long let me probe a little bit

1058
00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:16,140
further about the types of near-death

1059
00:48:20,790 --> 00:48:18,610
experience research that's out there

1060
00:48:23,010 --> 00:48:20,800
because for the years I've had a lot of

1061
00:48:24,780 --> 00:48:23,020
near-death experience researchers and

1062
00:48:28,820 --> 00:48:24,790
for example you know just the other day

1063
00:48:31,860 --> 00:48:28,830
I interviewed this guy nice enough guy

1064
00:48:34,140 --> 00:48:31,870
University of California he's doing his

1065
00:48:36,630 --> 00:48:34,150
post doctoral fellowship he's part of a

1066
00:48:38,460 --> 00:48:36,640
team they received four million dollars

1067
00:48:42,030 --> 00:48:38,470
and Foundation to study near-death

1068
00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:42,040
experiences so I speak to him about his

1069
00:48:47,580 --> 00:48:45,130
research turns out he didn't really do

1070
00:48:50,100 --> 00:48:47,590
any original research he didn't go into

1071
00:48:52,650 --> 00:48:50,110
a hospital into a cardiac arrest ward

1072
00:48:56,310 --> 00:48:52,660
and talk to patients there he didn't as

1073
00:48:57,720 --> 00:48:56,320
you did develop a 150 medical survey and

1074
00:49:00,840 --> 00:48:57,730
give it to hundreds of near-death

1075
00:49:03,780 --> 00:49:00,850
experience researchers yet he published

1076
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:03,790
his results we talked about his book he

1077
00:49:07,410 --> 00:49:05,770
concluded that near-death experiences

1078
00:49:08,340 --> 00:49:07,420
aren't real in the way that we're

1079
00:49:09,990 --> 00:49:08,350
talking about

1080
00:49:13,530 --> 00:49:10,000
they don't suggest that consciousness

1081
00:49:16,650 --> 00:49:13,540
seems to survive bodily death so I guess

1082
00:49:19,080 --> 00:49:16,660
the question is for the average person

1083
00:49:21,300 --> 00:49:19,090
who's trying to sort through this idea

1084
00:49:24,330 --> 00:49:21,310
of near-death experience science

1085
00:49:27,510 --> 00:49:24,340
research how do they sort through it how

1086
00:49:30,690 --> 00:49:27,520
do they know what research really holds

1087
00:49:33,810 --> 00:49:30,700
up out there the key thing is to know a

1088
00:49:36,030 --> 00:49:33,820
few of the consistently seen elements of

1089
00:49:37,319 --> 00:49:36,040
near-death experience that are the

1090
00:49:40,170 --> 00:49:37,329
strongest evidence for

1091
00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:40,180
reality for example when you're under

1092
00:49:44,509 --> 00:49:42,249
general anesthesia it should be

1093
00:49:47,579 --> 00:49:44,519
impossible to have a lucid organized

1094
00:49:49,739 --> 00:49:47,589
remembrance at that time in fact under

1095
00:49:51,930 --> 00:49:49,749
anesthesia you're typically so far under

1096
00:49:53,069 --> 00:49:51,940
with general anesthesia they often have

1097
00:49:55,229 --> 00:49:53,079
to breathe for you I mean you're

1098
00:49:58,109 --> 00:49:55,239
literally brain shut down to the level

1099
00:50:00,180 --> 00:49:58,119
of the brainstem and at that point in

1100
00:50:01,650 --> 00:50:00,190
time some people have a cardiac arrest

1101
00:50:03,089 --> 00:50:01,660
their heart stops and of course that's

1102
00:50:05,279 --> 00:50:03,099
very well documented

1103
00:50:06,989 --> 00:50:05,289
they monitor people very carefully that

1104
00:50:09,329 --> 00:50:06,999
are having general anesthesia

1105
00:50:10,949 --> 00:50:09,339
so I have dozens and dozens of

1106
00:50:13,469 --> 00:50:10,959
near-death experiences that occurred

1107
00:50:15,839 --> 00:50:13,479
under general anesthesia and at this

1108
00:50:17,849 --> 00:50:15,849
time it should be if you will EE

1109
00:50:19,799 --> 00:50:17,859
impossible to have a conscious

1110
00:50:21,900 --> 00:50:19,809
remembrance and yet they do have

1111
00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:21,910
near-death experiences at this time and

1112
00:50:26,430 --> 00:50:24,249
their typical near-death experiences

1113
00:50:27,719 --> 00:50:26,440
they have the same elements and appear

1114
00:50:29,819 --> 00:50:27,729
to have them in the same order as

1115
00:50:32,190 --> 00:50:29,829
near-death experiences occurring under

1116
00:50:34,170 --> 00:50:32,200
all other circumstances and in fact a

1117
00:50:36,209 --> 00:50:34,180
critical survey question I asked was

1118
00:50:38,219 --> 00:50:36,219
what their level of consciousness and

1119
00:50:40,709 --> 00:50:38,229
alertness during the experience was well

1120
00:50:42,900 --> 00:50:40,719
even under general anesthetics under

1121
00:50:44,849 --> 00:50:42,910
those powerful chemicals to produce

1122
00:50:46,650 --> 00:50:44,859
sedation if they had a near-death

1123
00:50:48,660 --> 00:50:46,660
experience under general anesthesia

1124
00:50:50,910 --> 00:50:48,670
their level of consciousness and

1125
00:50:52,709 --> 00:50:50,920
alertness was identical to near-death

1126
00:50:55,349 --> 00:50:52,719
experience is occurring under all other

1127
00:50:59,609 --> 00:50:55,359
circumstances there's absolutely no way

1128
00:51:02,459 --> 00:50:59,619
the skeptics can explain that away you

1129
00:51:07,049 --> 00:51:02,469
can fill a convention center with

1130
00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:07,059
believers in any religion any alternate

1131
00:51:12,479 --> 00:51:09,690
science you quoted in your book and

1132
00:51:14,729 --> 00:51:12,489
loaded or not quoted because of the

1133
00:51:18,089 --> 00:51:14,739
because of the studies that he did not

1134
00:51:21,029 --> 00:51:18,099
the studies are not supportive they also

1135
00:51:23,939 --> 00:51:21,039
quote Einstein I quote glasses attorneys

1136
00:51:26,069 --> 00:51:23,949
believers and this guy still this guy is

1137
00:51:29,789 --> 00:51:26,079
still alive and he's come out and said

1138
00:51:32,370 --> 00:51:29,799
be fine I don't care he can believe what

1139
00:51:35,130 --> 00:51:32,380
he wants like I said Niels Bohr anyone

1140
00:51:37,499 --> 00:51:35,140
who wants they can believe half of them

1141
00:51:39,630 --> 00:51:37,509
work where word hearing Christians half

1142
00:51:42,029 --> 00:51:39,640
of them were adherent Jews they will

1143
00:51:44,249 --> 00:51:42,039
believed in their various paradigms but

1144
00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:44,259
here's the bigger picture you could fill

1145
00:51:49,049 --> 00:51:46,690
a convention center with all of these

1146
00:51:50,460 --> 00:51:49,059
people who believe write book showing

1147
00:51:52,620 --> 00:51:50,470
they're a doctor

1148
00:51:56,010 --> 00:51:52,630
they improve near-death experiences and

1149
00:51:59,099 --> 00:51:56,020
yet and yet of all of the greater

1150
00:52:01,920 --> 00:51:59,109
picture the millions of scientists who

1151
00:52:05,670 --> 00:52:01,930
represent scientific organizations you

1152
00:52:08,160 --> 00:52:05,680
will not find one college one legitimate

1153
00:52:10,529 --> 00:52:08,170
college at offers you a degree in

1154
00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:10,539
near-death experiences now if it was a

1155
00:52:16,020 --> 00:52:13,210
valid science I should be able to major

1156
00:52:18,120 --> 00:52:16,030
and it's like I could geology it's so

1157
00:52:20,250 --> 00:52:18,130
are you gonna dismiss the you want to

1158
00:52:22,140 --> 00:52:20,260
dismiss true you do say stuff that you

1159
00:52:24,150 --> 00:52:22,150
just don't know whether it's true or not

1160
00:52:26,819 --> 00:52:24,160
so you can go to the University of

1161
00:52:28,079 --> 00:52:26,829
Virginia and dr. Bruce Grayson and

1162
00:52:30,420 --> 00:52:28,089
there's plenty of people that are

1163
00:52:33,260 --> 00:52:30,430
getting PhDs and the research is

1164
00:52:36,750 --> 00:52:33,270
primarily a near-death experience and

1165
00:52:39,359 --> 00:52:36,760
perceptual studies they're saying that

1166
00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:39,369
you can you name one college even in a

1167
00:52:44,849 --> 00:52:42,970
Maris did no no Walker's a major listen

1168
00:52:48,079 --> 00:52:44,859
you can get a PhD in whatever you feel

1169
00:52:50,490 --> 00:52:48,089
like studying can you name one college

1170
00:52:53,809 --> 00:52:50,500
whenever you're pushed back you just

1171
00:52:55,829 --> 00:52:53,819
kind of just question I just said yes

1172
00:52:57,839 --> 00:52:55,839
Virginia and I'll give you another one

1173
00:53:01,339 --> 00:52:57,849
University of North Texas at Janice

1174
00:53:03,299 --> 00:53:01,349
Holden I've interviewed PhD candidates

1175
00:53:06,029 --> 00:53:03,309
candidates but you're not answering my

1176
00:53:09,809 --> 00:53:06,039
question can in any of those schools can

1177
00:53:13,730 --> 00:53:09,819
I get a major in near-death experiences

1178
00:53:18,359 --> 00:53:13,740
that's the great area no I think it was

1179
00:53:21,569 --> 00:53:18,369
validated and accelerated is when your

1180
00:53:24,839 --> 00:53:21,579
PhD is accepted into the broader body of

1181
00:53:26,519 --> 00:53:24,849
knowledge that is academia that is pool

1182
00:53:28,829 --> 00:53:26,529
if someone offered me half a million

1183
00:53:31,289 --> 00:53:28,839
dollars for a PhD I'd say yeah you want

1184
00:53:34,410 --> 00:53:31,299
to get a PhD and two-headed bats with

1185
00:53:36,420 --> 00:53:34,420
Hitler's brain go for it you can't you

1186
00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:36,430
can't do that you can't get a PhD in

1187
00:53:40,380 --> 00:53:38,890
two-headed bats well but apparently you

1188
00:53:42,630 --> 00:53:40,390
can because people you're saying are

1189
00:53:44,069 --> 00:53:42,640
getting PhDs and near-death experiences

1190
00:53:46,349 --> 00:53:44,079
and to me that's the equivalence of a

1191
00:53:49,319 --> 00:53:46,359
two-headed bat with Hitler's brain well

1192
00:53:53,010 --> 00:53:49,329
that's that's well said on your part is

1193
00:53:55,500 --> 00:53:53,020
that to you they're equivalent so that

1194
00:53:58,680 --> 00:53:55,510
is the standard by which you measure it

1195
00:54:00,960 --> 00:53:58,690
the math you Alper standard of what's

1196
00:54:02,640 --> 00:54:00,970
real and I I get that and there's

1197
00:54:03,900 --> 00:54:02,650
certainly a lot of people you know in

1198
00:54:05,430 --> 00:54:03,910
your camp I just

1199
00:54:07,859 --> 00:54:05,440
well it's not just there a lot of people

1200
00:54:09,270 --> 00:54:07,869
might camp why don't you and feel free

1201
00:54:11,400 --> 00:54:09,280
when you get all when we get off the

1202
00:54:15,359 --> 00:54:11,410
radio to look up let's just say the top

1203
00:54:18,029 --> 00:54:15,369
10 schools in America and ask them call

1204
00:54:20,370 --> 00:54:18,039
call the Dean cauldre the Registrar say

1205
00:54:22,589 --> 00:54:20,380
can I get a major can i major in

1206
00:54:26,339 --> 00:54:22,599
near-death experiences can I major in

1207
00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:26,349
reincarnation can I major in Jesus can I

1208
00:54:34,740 --> 00:54:31,930
major in Zeus can I major in UFO L alien

1209
00:54:36,599 --> 00:54:34,750
technology now you could go to the TV

1210
00:54:39,720 --> 00:54:36,609
channels and you could watch 50 shows

1211
00:54:42,210 --> 00:54:39,730
about alien technologies and ghosts but

1212
00:54:44,250 --> 00:54:42,220
there's nevertheless there's a there's a

1213
00:54:47,579 --> 00:54:44,260
there's a there's a distinction between

1214
00:54:50,099 --> 00:54:47,589
what you can watch on TV even with MDS

1215
00:54:53,640 --> 00:54:50,109
and PhDs talking about it and what you

1216
00:54:56,609 --> 00:54:53,650
can study in a valid University go to

1217
00:55:00,210 --> 00:54:56,619
medical school and say I don't want to

1218
00:55:04,950 --> 00:55:00,220
be an optometrist or a urologist I want

1219
00:55:09,690 --> 00:55:04,960
to be a near-death experience

1220
00:55:16,049 --> 00:55:09,700
and you won't get in because it's not

1221
00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:16,059
real science ok I would have crane a

1222
00:55:21,329 --> 00:55:17,890
bigger picture than these few

1223
00:55:23,549 --> 00:55:21,339
specialized voices that anyone can find

1224
00:55:26,430 --> 00:55:23,559
I could like I said I could find a

1225
00:55:28,260 --> 00:55:26,440
specialist with a PhD and an MD to tell

1226
00:55:31,920 --> 00:55:28,270
me about that they can prove the

1227
00:55:33,630 --> 00:55:31,930
existence of the Virgin Mary you name it

1228
00:55:36,839 --> 00:55:33,640
it's out there again the Loch Ness

1229
00:55:38,910 --> 00:55:36,849
monster any imaginary thing there's

1230
00:55:41,250 --> 00:55:38,920
someone out there with a voice behind it

1231
00:55:43,500 --> 00:55:41,260
and that's because humans the bigger

1232
00:55:48,029 --> 00:55:43,510
picture is because humans are hard-wired

1233
00:55:50,039 --> 00:55:48,039
to believe in magical thinking we need

1234
00:55:53,819 --> 00:55:50,049
to believe that even though the body

1235
00:55:56,460 --> 00:55:53,829
will die that somehow consciousness will

1236
00:55:59,490 --> 00:55:56,470
persevere because without some version

1237
00:56:01,650 --> 00:55:59,500
of that belief life is just too freakin

1238
00:56:07,010 --> 00:56:01,660
painful and devastating for us to get

1239
00:56:10,049 --> 00:56:07,020
through that's not for me the final word

1240
00:56:12,269 --> 00:56:10,059
well I am NOT gonna add to it because

1241
00:56:13,890 --> 00:56:12,279
you should be allowed to have the final

1242
00:56:16,430 --> 00:56:13,900
word I think these discussions always

1243
00:56:19,160 --> 00:56:16,440
bring up interesting

1244
00:56:22,190 --> 00:56:19,170
points so I'd appreciate you coming on

1245
00:56:24,980 --> 00:56:22,200
Matthew again the god part of the brain

1246
00:56:27,259 --> 00:56:24,990
he said he hasn't touched it since 2008

1247
00:56:29,269 --> 00:56:27,269
but I'm sure you'll find it a good read

1248
00:56:31,490 --> 00:56:29,279
very well-written and a good book and

1249
00:56:31,970 --> 00:56:31,500
Matthew thanks for coming on the show

1250
00:56:36,170 --> 00:56:31,980
today

1251
00:56:39,499 --> 00:56:36,180
sure thanks for having me on sorry I

1252
00:56:40,910 --> 00:56:39,509
know I frustrated you there but you know

1253
00:56:41,930 --> 00:56:40,920
I've just heard this from skeptics all

1254
00:56:44,089 --> 00:56:41,940
the diamond so you look you know

1255
00:56:46,430 --> 00:56:44,099
whack-a-mole it's the same as arguing

1256
00:56:48,079 --> 00:56:46,440
fundamentalist Christians you know if

1257
00:56:49,579 --> 00:56:48,089
you're kidding with science then that's

1258
00:56:51,529 --> 00:56:49,589
not good science if you hit them with

1259
00:56:54,259 --> 00:56:51,539
something that isn't science then why

1260
00:56:56,180 --> 00:56:54,269
don't you do in science so it's like you

1261
00:56:58,549 --> 00:56:56,190
can't win but that's people who have

1262
00:57:00,589 --> 00:56:58,559
fixed beliefs I don't have fixed beliefs

1263
00:57:02,210 --> 00:57:00,599
I'd go with forever I changed my mind

1264
00:57:04,009 --> 00:57:02,220
all the time based on the evidence but

1265
00:57:13,460 --> 00:57:04,019
not everybody's like that all right I

1266
00:57:15,170 --> 00:57:13,470
gotta run see thanks again to Matthew

1267
00:57:17,539 --> 00:57:15,180
helper for joining me today on skeptic

1268
00:57:19,460 --> 00:57:17,549
oh the one question I guess I'd have to

1269
00:57:21,259 --> 00:57:19,470
tee up from this interview and its kind

1270
00:57:23,720 --> 00:57:21,269
of outside of this interview because I

1271
00:57:28,029 --> 00:57:23,730
thought his arguments were so pointless

1272
00:57:30,589 --> 00:57:28,039
is should we continue to engage with

1273
00:57:32,870 --> 00:57:30,599
skeptics should I continue engaged in

1274
00:57:34,670 --> 00:57:32,880
skeptics and publish interviews and put

1275
00:57:37,220 --> 00:57:34,680
them out on the skeptical Channel for

1276
00:57:39,559 --> 00:57:37,230
you to listen to I kind of feel mixed

1277
00:57:41,180 --> 00:57:39,569
you know in one hand I feel like these

1278
00:57:43,249 --> 00:57:41,190
people are still out there and still

1279
00:57:44,900 --> 00:57:43,259
have a lot of credibility with a lot of

1280
00:57:46,309 --> 00:57:44,910
people even though their arguments are

1281
00:57:48,769 --> 00:57:46,319
incredibly silly I mean here's someone

1282
00:57:50,329 --> 00:57:48,779
who I really thought was going to back

1283
00:57:52,910 --> 00:57:50,339
out of this interview because we did

1284
00:57:56,299 --> 00:57:52,920
such a thorough job of debunking his

1285
00:57:58,460 --> 00:57:56,309
nonsense in the skeptical forum before

1286
00:58:00,470 --> 00:57:58,470
he came on and that was my goal is to

1287
00:58:02,029 --> 00:58:00,480
kind of drive him away don't bring him

1288
00:58:05,450 --> 00:58:02,039
on the show don't waste a lot of time

1289
00:58:07,400 --> 00:58:05,460
but he comes on anyway and then he just

1290
00:58:09,559 --> 00:58:07,410
fails at all these things that we

1291
00:58:12,079 --> 00:58:09,569
already hashed out in the skeptical

1292
00:58:14,809 --> 00:58:12,089
forum like he's quoting dr. Karl Jensen

1293
00:58:16,339 --> 00:58:14,819
the ketamine guy totally misquoting him

1294
00:58:18,859 --> 00:58:16,349
and misrepresenting him I mean you just

1295
00:58:21,950 --> 00:58:18,869
can't do that if you're serious about

1296
00:58:24,759 --> 00:58:21,960
this but it just all rolls off the back

1297
00:58:26,779 --> 00:58:24,769
of these true believers and that's

1298
00:58:29,120 --> 00:58:26,789
frustrating but at the same time it's

1299
00:58:29,870 --> 00:58:29,130
kind of worth I think putting it out

1300
00:58:30,950 --> 00:58:29,880
there and maybe

1301
00:58:32,150 --> 00:58:30,960
there's a different perspective of

1302
00:58:34,820 --> 00:58:32,160
course there's a different perspective

1303
00:58:37,880 --> 00:58:34,830
and let's hear your different

1304
00:58:40,160 --> 00:58:37,890
perspective hey by the way I'd love to

1305
00:58:43,370 --> 00:58:40,170
get some more traction over there on the

1306
00:58:46,340 --> 00:58:43,380
skeptical forum it really is a go-to

1307
00:58:48,560 --> 00:58:46,350
place for me and I love it when you all

1308
00:58:50,300 --> 00:58:48,570
join me as I said when we were preparing

1309
00:58:52,220 --> 00:58:50,310
for this interview there are some great

1310
00:58:54,590 --> 00:58:52,230
comments there that really helped shape

1311
00:58:56,330 --> 00:58:54,600
this interview so if you haven't been

1312
00:58:58,550 --> 00:58:56,340
over there for a while please come over

1313
00:59:01,220 --> 00:58:58,560
to the skeptical forum and join me I'm

1314
00:59:04,370 --> 00:59:01,230
usually there I'm usually responding to

1315
00:59:07,220 --> 00:59:04,380
almost every meaningful post that's

1316
00:59:10,670 --> 00:59:07,230
there and I hope you join me over there

1317
00:59:13,700 --> 00:59:10,680
also I'm gonna be working on some new

1318
00:59:16,070 --> 00:59:13,710
projects over there that I'd really like

1319
00:59:18,650 --> 00:59:16,080
some audience participation in in

1320
00:59:21,170 --> 00:59:18,660
particular this book that I'm working on

1321
00:59:23,810 --> 00:59:21,180
so Richard Cox from the deep state

1322
00:59:27,050 --> 00:59:23,820
consciousness podcast has actually

1323
00:59:29,990 --> 00:59:27,060
agreed to kind of help me Corral some of

1324
00:59:31,910 --> 00:59:30,000
this in so you'll see him and I posting

1325
00:59:33,980 --> 00:59:31,920
over there and we really like to have

1326
00:59:37,460 --> 00:59:33,990
you come over there and join us because

1327
00:59:39,800 --> 00:59:37,470
this audience this narrow audience that

1328
00:59:44,300 --> 00:59:39,810
decides to dive deeply into this stuff

1329
00:59:47,030 --> 00:59:44,310
is really important to this work that

1330
00:59:49,850 --> 00:59:47,040
I'm doing and trying to move forward so

1331
00:59:51,590 --> 00:59:49,860
that's my that's my plea there please

1332
00:59:54,080 --> 00:59:51,600
come over to the skeptical forum and

1333
00:59:55,700 --> 00:59:54,090
join me by the way you can also of

1334
00:59:57,350 --> 00:59:55,710
course check out the skeptic web site

1335
01:00:00,050 --> 00:59:57,360
all the past shows are there download

1336
01:00:02,360 --> 01:00:00,060
them use them share them and stay with

1337
01:00:03,890 --> 01:00:02,370
me I have a number of I think really

1338
01:00:06,440 --> 01:00:03,900
good interviews coming up I'm really

1339
01:00:09,020 --> 01:00:06,450
excited to bring them to you so stay

1340
01:00:12,480 --> 01:00:09,030
with me for all of that until next time